28 replies to this topic

[dem beats]

I badly *need* some audio processing in my living room and my bedroom, as the audio from TV is becoming too much to deal with in those spaces. I also need at least 2 speakers for these locations to replace all sound from the TV’s. I’m generally happy with my HT in general but am also willing to use pieces from that set up if needed.

Here is the sources that I have/want and some general goals.

The bedroom wouldn't need to stream audio really, just be able to watch movies in bed without the HORRIBLE sound from the display. Ipod connectivity by 3.5 to RCA would be just fine if I wanted bedroom music. Or laptop streaming to the server. I also have a spare tower I could dedicate to that room or the living room if needed. Bedroom is just a BRD player. 99.9% of the time the bedroom is used for movies when someone feels sick, but some very basic music playing function would be ok. We don’t have cable hooked up to that room now and for now that is fine.

For the living room I have a PS3 and cable box. I would like to feed audio from my home server/pc to the living room, and maybe the bedroom. I'm not sure how much receiver I should be buying because of this. For the living room though the W wants to plug in her ipod, and then she saw that some of them have DNLA and can run pandora etc and really liked the idea of that. The living room would get much more use. The TV in this room is on 70% of the time we are home after work probably. We are rarely watching intently(honestly maybe only 5% of the time it’s on), but it serves as background noise while doing things around the house, and cooking. Right now since the kitchen breakfast bar area is not finished and we don’t have a real dining room we spend meal times here also.

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I would also at some point like my system to be capable of whole home audio and lighting control etc. I just don't want to have anything I can't take with me. I will need some level of local control in each room. The average home buyer in my neighborhood would probably not value a change like that also so I take that into consideration. Hard wiring is fine I'm just hesitant to integrate too much into the home structure itself. ie place permanent electronics etc. I can run wire anywhere. Not one bit afraid to do that.

In this current home I will want to have audio piped outside also, and maybe kitchen. The kitchen is close to the living room so it makes it a bit silly to have more speakers in there, but then it doesn't have to blast in the living room to sound good in the kitchen. It would be nice when watching food network and cooking. As for outside speaks and kitchen speaks I don't care about the quality really and that's not on the menu yet, but just something to let you know the ultimate goal for this house. For right now the scope is just upgrading the living room and bedroom. With the ability to expand someday to kitchen and outside if not whole home.
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Here is basic control of the system I will need.



I would say each of the 3 rooms would need control of the display & brd player minimum. Living room also needs some stereo music functionality

In the HT I want to control the music from the server( right now it’s in the same basic area of the house) and any other adjustability that I might desire. The Living room the wife wants control for radio, music from teh server/ipod, and maybe pandora also.

So both local and global sources in each zone.
Local control of volume and source in each zone.
Ipod input and BR.
Extra PC's are acceptable interfaces in rooms where I want control.



Current resources, budgets, and other thoughts.

As for speakers, I could break up the energy RC 5 chan system I have in the theater, left, right, and center for the living room, and then the bookshelves for the bedroom. I do really like how these speakers give love to the mid range. I have a yammy z7 in the HT also. This thing is a BRUTE. The GUI is a bear to handle sometimes, and some of the functions are a bit tough to find and use but it works and has lots of capability. Extremely robust IMHO. I would be willing to move it to the upstairs, but then I would then need something that would be quite a receiver to put in the HT. It wouldn’t be worth it unless I could get some nice functionality like extra sub control/more sub chans. I doubt any receiver would have enough control that I could forgo a separate unit for sub management with my current dual Mael-x project. I honestly haven’t delved past 75% of the functions of this AV receiver. For an example it has 4 zone capability and I’m not even sure what to think about that. The second video zone is *only* composite video however, if it had HDMI I may have looked into using it to run the bedroom and living room etc.

I can see the cost skyrocketing if I bring up either my current speakers or receiver. This is fine if I get longevity and functionality out of it. I don’t have a budget. I have a very low ceiling for cost/rewards though. If I really deem something worth it I will work out the finances and either slowly get parts or find a way to pay for it now. Lewt is on standby anyway.

I also have an integra that doesn't have HDMI, but has optical. This would definitely work as an audio source and I could just run HDMI video direct to the display. I figured this would be an easy option for the bedroom. I will have to make sure however that the BRD player can shoot optical audio and HDMI video at the same time.

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Thanks guys for helping me put collect my ideas and condense into a thread worthy venture. Special thanks to Deep for keeping my brain on topic and solidify goals here.

[dem beats]

Here are the the questions at hand then.....

Deephaven, on 04 August 2010 - 08:00 AM, said:

So both local and global sources in each zone.
Local control of volume and source in each zone.
Ipod input in BR.
Extra PC's are acceptable interfaces in rooms where you want control

?? Does every room that needs sound have a TV? Or at least close proximity to one?
Do you need to have different things playing in each room? If so, can one global source work and then the other source be local?
Which rooms need more than 2 channel music?
How many 2 chn rooms do you have?

I'd suggest a thread. You can focus the first topic on the above with some background. Exactly what others might benefit from.

I have a display everywhere I would want sound other than outside. Outside isn't a big deal right now anyway, but I don't plan to ever put a screen out there as it would freeze in seconds in winter. Some volume control might be ok, but it would have to be extremely rugged. The kitchen doesn't have one currently, but I can see the livingroom's 52" without too much trouble. I may mount a small 28" hans G moniter in there someday anyway though. I saw it somewhere else and it looked nice....

When you say 2 chan music I want to be clear. I only care about stereo sound in the HT the living room and the bedroom. Any and everything else could be mono piped music. I should also point out that I have an 18"Q sealed in a 6' box for the livingroom after it gets painted and my little 10" could probably be used in the bedroom if I ever felt I needed a sub in there. So 2.1 is available.

I do not care one bit about having more than stereo music in any room. Maybe someday I could have 5.1 in the livingroom, but to me it seams a waste and the W would probably have a fit if it was anything other that ceiling mounted speakers. 3.1 is realistic especially if I would canibalize the HT downstairs as I wouldn't have any other use for the center.

[Deephaven]

How wife proof does it need to be? ie, can she deal with complex remotes or does it have to be PhD proof?

Is the iPod as a source locally a good enough one for music in those locations or do you want to have a computer based storage solution for each room?

Any independence required? ie, can you play the same music throughout the house or do you have to have local sources for different things.

On the same note, if it is TV audio do you need the capability of independent TV audio in two different rooms (ie two different sources?)

As a simple solution have you looked at the "Apple TV" option? It may do everything you need right now considering you are already an Ipod user. What it would do is let you change music from anywhere you have a TV off your computer.

My next easy choice for sources would be a Logitech Squeezebox. The disadvantage with it is that you either need home automation or expensive remotes. The advantage is you also get Pandora control. You would also need one for each different audio source you wanted playing in each different room (outside of TV).

I'd like to nail the sources down completely before discussing what items to use for integration in each room. One thing though, my gut says your receiver should stay where it is.

[dem beats]

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How wife proof does it need to be? ie, can she deal with complex remotes or does it have to be PhD proof?

Wife is actually really tech savvy. She really does know her way around a receiver. She does require consistency however. I can’t go changing things often, and she likes a place for everything and everything in it’s place when it comes to tech. She’s really easy to work with, in that aspect.

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Is the iPod as a source locally a good enough one for music in those locations or do you want to have a computer based storage solution for each room?

I really want to access server music from my HT and from the living room, and thus probably kitchen/outside. Laptop or ipod are more than enough for bedroom. The wife is the Ipod queen, I’m not a fan of Ipods if I’m home.

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Any independence required? ie, can you play the same music throughout the house or do you have to have local sources for different things.

HT, livingroom, and bedroom must be independent. Kitchen and outside would be the same. Perhaps volume control independence but same source would be fine. No need to pump music or Iron chef outside if no one is out there.

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On the same note, if it is TV audio do you need the capability of independent TV audio in two different rooms (ie two different sources?)

Again bedroom, HT, and living room would all need to be completely independent. I think now I am starting to understand where you are coming from. I would say that TV sound would never be needed outside, but might be nice in the kitchen so those could share a source with the living room TV if any at all.

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As a simple solution have you looked at the "Apple TV" option? It may do everything you need right now considering you are already an Ipod user. What it would do is let you change music from anywhere you have a TV off your computer.

I hated the apple TV but I also didn’t know it was that capable. I will look into it again, but I LOATHED the picture quality so much when I used it on with a friend we lived with…..I thought it was massively over priced and low quality. Which is hard for me as I was once a long time ago a big apple fan when their quality was high.

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My next easy choice for sources would be a Logitech Squeezebox. The disadvantage with it is that you either need home automation or expensive remotes. The advantage is you also get Pandora control. You would also need one for each different audio source you wanted playing in each different room (outside of TV).

Could the squeeze box handle audio for the living room and pull audio from the server, and then via a receiver switch the squeeze box to play to other “zones”? That might handle that scenario. The receiver in the living room would need to be able to control zone one and at least 1 other zone at the same time independently though…. This is an intristing option. Perhaps I’m reading more into it that you were thinking though.

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One thing though, my gut says your receiver should stay where it is.

Yeah.. You got me. Just always shopping for new tech ya know…. :insert sheepish grin here:

You know how it is, you see a mid range dennon with 9.3 chan and windows 7 for 1300 less than the list on my z7…. I got curious what might be out there The z7 has mountains more amp power and much much much much much much much better components inside for processing.

[Deephaven]

I am not a fan of multi-zone receivers for more than a small apartment. Regularly their zone control is a bit kludgy.

One thing to clarify, my term independent wasn't exactly how you took it. Basically I am wondering if it would be okay to have three input choices in each and every space. I would assume independent volume is always necessary. The three input choices are: 1) local television (ie whatever you are watching), 2) something off your central pc, 3) local audio input (ie iPod)

As for the Apple TV I wasn't promoting using it as a TV server, but exclusively as a way to interact with your music. It allows you to play all of your music from your central server and control/switch songs etc. Not a complete solution IMO, but it is very easy to use and can fill the needs of many. Personally I much prefer the Squeezebox, but I have very different constraints than you do.

In my house I currently can watch only one TV show at a time on cable (one cable box) and it is broadcast in parallel to all the rooms. I also only have only 1 music source throughout the whole house and it is my computer via the Squeezebox. Currently this means any room can either watch TV or listen to the same music. Of course to expand I can add another Squeezebox at anytime or cablebox and buy independence, but that hasn't been necessary.

There is one other thing to balance. Most new receivers are so baked on the processing that they have an automatic delay built in. Having a "pure stereo" function is completely necessary otherwise your rooms won't be in sync with each other which is really disconcerting. There are other fixes around this, but will require some remote savvy or some programming.


So do you mean level independent, source independent and if so how many different sources are necessary? Do you have zones where more than one local source input is necessary?

BTW, I wired my house (extra cat6 cable) for a local input in every location. I currently have no iPod, don't see a need or benefit for one, but could see needing something in the long run. For instance in my living room I have an analog plug currently there right now for a local DVD player or Video camera, but have nothing analog wired anywhere else.

Lastly, the balance of all this is that the more control you want the more money you spend. If you are just looking for "tunes" and TV in each room there are some very cost effective ways of doing this, if you truly want automation it will either take money or time (potentially both ).

[Deephaven]

Ah, one other note. Even though I only can have one music source for my whole house I can change it anywhere that I am as long as I have a computer in the room. Considering I am either sitting at my desk or right next to my laptop this is fine. In the long run I'll be doing this via really smart remotes that are actually mini-pc's but I am waiting for them to drop from $1000 to a couple hundred before going down that path.

[dem beats]

I'm sorry if I'm still not getting it.

In the current situation I need the HT bedroom and living room all to be able to switch from source to source on their own. I never watch cable on the HT or the bedroom. In fact the only thing I want every zone to have access to is the music on my server, but I don't want them to be forced to play the same media.

So I guess I have 4 zones, 3 of which would need complete A/V independence and the 4th(outside/kitchen) just needing audio, I could however put in a screen to control that function too though.

[Deephaven]

Perhaps this would be easier if you listed the sources and their locations. I currently don't know what you have exactly and what you need.

[dem beats]

zone one is the HT. I have xbox, ps3, and I would like to pull audio from the media server. It's completely ready to go with all equipment. I just need to see if I can get either the ps3 or the receiver to pull the mp3's from the server. If the PS3 can, then I've solved the problem there and then possibly for the living room.

zone two is the living room. I have a ps3, cable box, and my wife would like at bare minimum to be able to play her Ipod there. Being able to access pandora or the server is also something that I think would be nice. I need a receiver and speakers

zone three is the bedroom. It has a brd player. I would like to have basic audio input for stereo, server connection would be ideal but not needed. I will probably put my integra in there.

zone four is the kitchen/backyard. I have nothing at all for this zone. I've been thinking a while on this zone too. What I would really like from this zone is to have some kind of full PC access. Internet browsing, and audio. The total package.

[Deephaven]

Do you need to control all zones from one location or is local only control okay?

If you need global control then we will have to move most or all the gear to one central location and cable it elsewhere.

[Deephaven]

On the zones with many inputs that all seemingly go to the TV are you willing to use the TV out as an input to the stereo? If not, obviously an input run for each source will be necessary.

[dem beats]

Local only is fine actually. I have been brain storming on something for a while that I will run by you in this thread but I want to solidify these questions first.


I thought an input for each sourse would be needed anyway. How could I use the TV to input to the strereo? I've never seen that.

[Deephaven]

dem beats, on 06 August 2010 - 07:44 AM, said:

Local only is fine actually. I have been brain storming on something for a while that I will run by you in this thread but I want to solidify these questions first.


I thought an input for each sourse would be needed anyway. How could I use the TV to input to the strereo? I've never seen that.

If local only is fine then you don't need a whole house system, just a way of feeding media from room to room. In that case, analog will be the cheapest.

Using the TV is pretty straightforward and actually what I do. I ran one set of RCA's (actually more, but just using one ) from my TV in the living room to my server room in the basement. There is a DVD player in the basement, but also one locally next to the TV. Considering I might plug in DVD, use a local TV source (if the cable box pukes or I want to watch something independent), or plug in my video camera I can then just use the outputs from the TV as a sort of multiplexer to get any of those sources over the same set of rca's without having to plug or unplug. It does obviously introduce some noise or bs, but it isn't really noticeable inparticular noting the sources. Long term I have pulled enough Cat6 to have a few a/d digital transmissions, but the baluns for those aren't cheap enough for me to bother yet in particular since I haven't needed the connections yet.

You sort of have to decide what your real goals are. To me it sounds like you currently just want music everywhere and everything else the way it is. That is not a hard solution Automation on the other hand it doesn't do any of.

[dem beats]

You pinned it there. I can tolerate local controll for now. What I originally was looking to answer here is if it would make sense to get a multi function receiver and spend some extra $$$ on that, or if using the ps3 or a small satalite pc would be a lower cost or higher function option. I do eventually want an option for global controll, and didn't want invest in a peice of hardware that might later just need to be replaced.

Here is a Q for you though. Lets say I put an inexpencive pc in each zone. Something that could access the media storage and have web access, just basic functions. Is there a software out there that could then allow me to have a "controller" like a laptop that could choose zones and controll them? It seams like this would be the most stable and cost effective way for someone to have independant controll on their own location. I just would hate to have to deal with flipping through folders and such to do what I want. So basically make all of the little pc's in the different locations have a "skin" that would allow surfing or media retreval and then a master controller that I could use?

[Deephaven]

Generically speaking I would NEVER recommend a multi-zone receiver. In particular if local control is okay.

If you want PC control then you need pre-amps that allow it. Not many do. The ones that do, won't really do more than 2chn either. There are exceptions, but they get eliminated fast once I ask for your budget.

Controlling the media in each zone is easy with a computer and a Squeezebox. You can even control the volume (only by limiting the level of the source, not the actual receiver so it is only partial control). You can also do it just with a squeezebox remote.

Sounds to me like you think local is okay, but your idea is really global. Huge difference in installations. For instance in my house ALL of the amplifiers are in one room. I have no receiver near any tv, no PS3 or anything else either. The exception of course is my redundant (read never used except for childrens crap) DVD player and a video camera input. EVERYTHING else is the in the basement. If you truly want some control that is the way you will have to go.
*note* even global you could keep your current receiver in the living room, but most likely you will lose the capability to control it. It would be possible depending on its connections and what software it can be controlled by to run control wires to another location.

[dem beats]

With your setup with the squeezebox and the computer can you listen to one thing in one room and your wife listen to something else in another?

[Deephaven]

I could if I had two Squeezeboxes. I only have one, but my wife doesn't really listen to music and if so it is my music I set up my automation to allow it in the future though as I know once Aidan gets older there will be a power struggle otherwise

[Deephaven]

dem beats, on 06 August 2010 - 09:31 AM, said:

With your setup with the squeezebox and the computer can you listen to one thing in one room and your wife listen to something else in another?

And actually you've sort of defined what the real deciding parameters are.

-Who listens to what where and combined with what elsewhere.
-Where and how do you want to control this

Other than that there isn't much else. I realize that is daunting though and will also tell you the compromise that sounds okay now, probably won't post integration. I of course did the classic Sean maneuver and over did everything. In the automation world there are also two types of automation: one way communication (ie you send commands) and two way (ie it sends its status back). If I did things over again I'd do everything 2 way including the lights.

[dem beats]

Lets say I have a scenario where I want complete audio, and video controll for each zone?

Like the situation you will have with Aidan, but video would be a factor too.

[Deephaven]

Dish, cable box, control required as well? Two ways to do that, the better IMO is to put the box in another room with the rest of the stuff but you could also just keep them local.

If you want to go as far as I did you are either going to have to do some coding with something along the lines of Charmedquark.com CQC software or you will have to spend serious dough. Even with my wholesale discount solutions from HAI and such are in the 5 digits for a full control system partly because of the remotes, but partly because it is a lot of shit to transmit and control around.

I'd estimate that my final install if I had received a bid on it from an installer would be well over $75k. Out of pocket I'll have probably $10-12k and a lot of time. I could very well be underestimating the 75...